When Jesus told Paul that His grace was sufficient, He meant that the trial would continue but that God's grace was sufficient to help him deal with it. God does not always remove the problems but He goes through the trials and temptations WITH us.

Paul's reference is probably to the same problems that the great apostle wrote about in Gal. 4: 13, 14.



Christianity is certainly built upon God's unmerited favor toward sinners, but God's grace does not do away with His law and the words of Jesus. Actually, as the Apostle said, faith in Christ establishes the law of God. Faith puts the law of God in the right perspective, that is, the gospel establishes the law on a firm foundation by showing the law's true relationship to the life and teachings of Christ.



In my view, Dr. Rich, that is because you are leaving out important parts of the equation.

Quote:
skyblue888: I agree with everything in your last post except for the last part of the sentence above. How about saying "the people who made this church what it was," because the church as it is today is no longer what it used to be, especially not like it was at the time of the rise of this movement.
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I don't have a fundamental disagreement with you here, sky, but I'm wondering what period of our history you speak of.

When you go back into our history-- or into the history of the Christian church in general-- you find that there never was a perfect, or ideal, period. That time never existed. At every point, there has been the same problems and the same kinds of struggles. Our church had some false beliefs in the 1860s through the 1950s, and I'm sure we still have some false beliefs. I don't see any of our official doctrines as false, but I know that many of us as individuals have some false "opinions" or private interpretations. I don't think our problem today is so much doctrinal as it is that we don't put into practice the truths that God has revealed to us. We love the world more than we love the Lord and His kingdom. We say we want Him to come and take us home but we are really fence-sitters. We know we are but we can't seem to do anything to change it. I think what keeps us from changing is that we are too attached to our comforts and our possessions. I guess what it comes down to is that Jesus is right in what He says in His love-letter to the church of Loadicea.

As a church I believe that we're like the children of Israel on the edge of the Promised Land, refusing to go in. We're in rebellion against God and against His prophet, just as they were back then.

I don't know that much about you personally-- except that I know from your previous posts that we're usually in agreement on most things-- so could I ask if you are an active member of the SDA church?

Also, what specifically do you have in mind when you say the church is no longer what it used to be? I agree with you but am interested in exactly what you are thinking of.
___________________________________________________

John, It goes along the same lines. In 1896 the Holy Spirit declared that "The people to whom God entrusted eternal interests, the depositories of truth pregnant with eternal results, the keepers of light that is to illuminate the whole world, have lost their bearings. Has God made a mistake?" See T.M.397.

In 1901 a testimony was sent to the effect that "The church has gone over to the world in transgression to the law, when the world should have come over to the church in obedience to the law." C.O.L.316.

I wonder what the Lord would say through the prophet if she were alive today!!! What does that say about our being the last church? The same year another solemn testimony was sent to the church declaring that "We may have to remain in this world because of our insubordination many more years." Letter 184, 1901.

In 1903 the Holy Spirit said that "The message to the church of the Laodiceans applies especially to the people of God today. It is a message to professing Christians who have become so much like the world that no difference can be seen." from R&H, Aug.20,1903.

This lamentable condition persisted until between 1955 and 1957, the leaders of the General Conference met with representatives of the popular churches and agreed to make compromises over our sanctuary doctrine, the fundamental and central pillar of the Advent Movement, in order to be recognized by the WCC as a Christian denomination, and no longer as an anti-christian cult. The leaders wished to be reckoned among "the churches that have taken sides with the first great apostate." 1 S.M.222, bottom of page.

Since then things have gotten from bad to worse. In the meantime, the true 1888 message has been lost sight of. It can still be said that "The understanding of the people of God has been blinded for Satan has misrepresented the character of God. Our good and gracious Lord has been presented before the people clothed in the attributes of Satan." 1 S.M.355.

In 1901 steps were taken to do away with the election of a General Conference president in oder to establish the Christian order for the church of Christ. Two years later, in 1903, the Christian order of organization adopted by the leaders at the 1901 Constitution was repudiated and today we have the legacy of the 1903 General Conference Constitution which is opposed to Christian order.

A few years later, this testimony was sent:

"God declares, 'I will be glorified in My people;' but the self-sufficient management of men has resulted in putting God aside, and accepting the devisings of men. If you allow this to continue, your faith will soon become extinct." T.M.481.

Where is at now?

You asked me if I am still a member. Yes I still have membership but for the last four years I have been home churching. We all know there are many adventists around the world who are home churching. I am not saying that all who are home churching have been called of God because I am sure many are self-called.

Now that doesn't mean that these men and women of God's own choosing are calling people out of the church because that is not their message any more than the disciples of Christ called their fellow Jews to come out of the church. That didn't come until after the great persecution in A.D.34. Then it was present truth to call the honest ones out of the Jewish established organization because by putting Stephen and James to death the church had sealed her rejection of God's mercy. See C.O.L.308,309.

These men and women of God's own choosing are going through a "wilderness" experience. Just as Jesus and His disciples were identified as the "little church" within the "established church" of their day, so today God has a "little church," within the established church. They are "men and women who are not too learned or too wise to believe the Word of God." C.O.L.79. The Lord has taken them away from the assemblies of men to the "desert" if you will, that He may teach them His message. He is preparing them just as He prepared His disciples to give the last message of mercy to the church and then to the world.

We will be surprised by the simple means He will use to finish the work and cut it short in righteousness. One thing we may know for sure of is that when He does finish the work, it will be "in a manner very much out of the common order of things and contrary to any human planning." T.M.300.

Back to you John. :)

sky

I agree with all of this until the last sentence. If the problem is one of simply not putting into practice the truths that have been revealed, I don't how Christ could ever come, because what would ever cause this to change?

The time when Christ was closest to coming was in the 1888 era. What sparked things was a *message*. People aren't going to change, but a message, a Gospel message from God, has the power to dramatically change lives and prepare the way for Christ's coming. Over and over EGW speaks to this, as evidenced by the 1888 Materials.

Unfortunately, as EGW explains in 1SM 234-5, the message met with resistance from the high mucky-mucks, and never had the sway God intended.

Well, I agree with much of this post, but not the part where you ask, "what would ever cause this to change?"

It is a good question but there is also a good answer: The change comes as a result of the work of the Holy Spirit, not through the effort of man or through "campaigns." I don't think this change in people will ever include the majority of Seventh-day Adventists, but it will be a remnant of the Remnant. At some point God will purify His church, and this purification will come through, among others, the introduction of heresies and allowing persecution to occur. God will allow the persecution when He sees that His people are ready for it. At that time many who didn't allow the truth to sanctify themselves will be shaken out of the church, and many others will be shaken in to take the place of those shaken out. I beleive this is part of the answer to your question.



You are right that people aren't going to change on their own, but they will change with the Holy Spirit's power, and that is the only way they will ever change. It will happen.



Agree.



Agree again, but many people are wrong about what that message was/is. God did not see fit to have the talks by Jones and Waggoner recorded by a stenographer. Ellen White's were, however. I think that was no doubt Providential, that theirs were not written down. I think God wants us to have to study individually to find out what He has for us and not feel that we can learn it simply by reading an article or one book. Yes, we can certainly learn about it from studying Ellen White, and Jones and Waggoner's books, but there is good evidence that Jones and Waggoner were wrong on some things-- and besides, they changed some of their beliefs not long after 1888-- so we can't assume that we can know precisely what the 1888 Message was by studying their writings. For instance, both men, and especially Waggoner, referred to "justification" as "making" us righteous, but I wonder if this is what they taught at the 1888 General Conference.

In any case, their view of Righteousness by Faith and the other, related doctrines was quiet different from the way most SDAs believe today. The most important difference was that both Ellen White and Jones & Waggoner taught that justification by faith is not merely a forensic transation, but that God actually changes the life in radically ways at the time He justifies us.

They talked often about the fact that God's word has creative power so that when He justifies us-- or puts us in right relationship to Him-- He simultaneously sends the Spirit into our lives and we become new creatures in Christ. So they could talk about justification "making" people righteous, and not merely declaring them righteous.

In that way, then, their message of justification by faith was really quite different from Luther's and the rest of the leaders of the Reformation. Yet, interestingly, A.G. Daniells evidently didn't see this important difference, so he taught that the 1888 Message was essentially a rediscovery of the old messsage that the Reformers preached. I believe he was wrong. It seems obvious to me that the 1888 Message was a new message in some very fundamental ways. Tragically, though, it was rejected by the church as a whole, especially by the leadership, so that to this day it has never been accepted and practiced by the largest portion of the church.

Oh boy...please...not this nonsense!

in light of the fact that most "active members" of the church will leave in droves, while "many" who have left will come back in, i tend to find it irrelevant to anything that im an active member.

skyblue888: I agree with everything in your last post except for the last part of the sentence above. How about saying "the people who made this church what it was," because the church as it is today is no longer what it used to be, especially not like it was at the time of the rise of this movement.
____________________________________________________________

I don't have a fundamental disagreement with you here, sky, but I'm wondering what period of our history you speak of.

When you go back into our history-- or into the history of the Christian church in general-- you find that there never was a perfect, or ideal, period. That time never existed. At every point, there has been the same problems and the same kinds of struggles. Our church had some false beliefs in the 1860s through the 1950s, and I'm sure we still have some false beliefs. I don't see any of our official doctrines as false, but I know that many of us as individuals have some false "opinions" or private interpretations. I don't think our problem today is so much doctrinal as it is that we don't put into practice the truths that God has revealed to us. We love the world more than we love the Lord and His kingdom. We say we want Him to come and take us home but we are really fence-sitters. We know we are but we can't seem to do anything to change it. I think what keeps us from changing is that we are too attached to our comforts and our possessions. I guess what it comes down to is that Jesus is right in what He says in His love-letter to the church of Loadicea.

As a church I believe that we're like the children of Israel on the edge of the Promised Land, refusing to go in. We're in rebellion against God and against His prophet, just as they were back then.

I don't know that much about you personally-- except that I know from your previous posts that we're usually in agreement on most things-- so could I ask if you are an active member of the SDA church?

Also, what specifically do you have in mind when you say the church is no longer what it used to be? I agree with you but am interested in exactly what you are thinking of.
___________________________________________________

John, It goes along the same lines. In 1896 the Holy Spirit declared that "The people to whom God entrusted eternal interests, the depositories of truth pregnant with eternal results, the keepers of light that is to illuminate the whole world, have lost their bearings. Has God made a mistake?" See T.M.397.

In 1901 a testimony was sent to the effect that "The church has gone over to the world in transgression to the law, when the world should have come over to the church in obedience to the law." C.O.L.316.

I wonder what the Lord would say through the prophet if she were alive today!!! What does that say about our being the last church? The same year another solemn testimony was sent to the church declaring that "We may have to remain in this world because of our insubordination many more years." Letter 184, 1901.

In 1903 the Holy Spirit said that "The message to the church of the Laodiceans applies especially to the people of God today. It is a message to professing Christians who have become so much like the world that no difference can be seen." from R&H, Aug.20,1903.

This lamentable condition persisted until between 1955 and 1957, the leaders of the General Conference met with representatives of the popular churches and agreed to make compromises over our sanctuary doctrine, the fundamental and central pillar of the Advent Movement, in order to be recognized by the WCC as a Christian denomination, and no longer as an anti-christian cult. The leaders wished to be reckoned among "the churches that have taken sides with the first great apostate." 1 S.M.222, bottom of page.

Since then things have gotten from bad to worse. In the meantime, the true 1888 message has been lost sight of. It can still be said that "The understanding of the people of God has been blinded for Satan has misrepresented the character of God. Our good and gracious Lord has been presented before the people clothed in the attributes of Satan." 1 S.M.355.

In 1901 steps were taken to do away with the election of a General Conference president in oder to establish the Christian order for the church of Christ. Two years later, in 1903, the Christian order of organization adopted by the leaders at the 1901 Constitution was repudiated and today we have the legacy of the 1903 General Conference Constitution which is opposed to Christian order.

A few years later, this testimony was sent:

"God declares, 'I will be glorified in My people;' but the self-sufficient management of men has resulted in putting God aside, and accepting the devisings of men. If you allow this to continue, your faith will soon become extinct." T.M.481.

Where is at now?

You asked me if I am still a member. Yes I still have membership but for the last four years I have been home churching. We all know there are many adventists around the world who are home churching. I am not saying that all who are home churching have been called of God because I am sure many are self-called.

Now that doesn't mean that these men and women of God's own choosing are calling people out of the church because that is not their message any more than the disciples of Christ called their fellow Jews to come out of the church. That didn't come until after the great persecution in A.D.34. Then it was present truth to call the honest ones out of the Jewish established organization because by putting Stephen and James to death the church had sealed her rejection of God's mercy. See C.O.L.308,309.

These men and women of God's own choosing are going through a "wilderness" experience. Just as Jesus and His disciples were identified as the "little church" within the "established church" of their day, so today God has a "little church," within the established church. They are "men and women who are not too learned or too wise to believe the Word of God." C.O.L.79. The Lord has taken them away from the assemblies of men to the "desert" if you will, that He may teach them His message. He is preparing them just as He prepared His disciples to give the last message of mercy to the church and then to the world.

We will be surprised by the simple means He will use to finish the work and cut it short in righteousness. One thing we may know for sure of is that when He does finish the work, it will be "in a manner very much out of the common order of things and contrary to any human planning." T.M.300.

Back to you John. :)

sky

John, did u miss this post. I answered your questions. No comment?

sky

John 317, I, personally, have found that those who have written bible commentaries, including the few SDA writers, ALL used a faulty foundation for their understanding which helped caused the readers to have faulty understanding(s). Many assumed, wrongly, that Paul must have had eye problems because of the time he was blinded. They get this from a statement about large or BOLD letters, much like we use to help get a point across.

They do this because they do NOT want to look at the truth of what was written by Paul, in that his god actually gave him a demon. It is interesting that Paul wrote in 1Tim that he gave people over to Satan to teach them a lesson. Therefore it is very clear Paul thought that God had done the same thing to him to get him to believe that "all one needs is grace". Him, being a Pharisee, probably gave a great sigh of relief for this statement to release him from all of the MANY rules and regulations they had.

I also find it interesting that this event followed what he wrote about him going to the third heaven to see and visit with Mary (the mother of Jesus), along with many of the dead prophets. Sure, the words that Paul testified to in this event is not in the bible, but can be found by googling "Paul's Revelation" and it is also clear that the Catholic Church relied heavily upon this writing for their understanding about Mary and that people go to heaven or haties and have to work themselves to heaven, as soon as they die.

Their false belief was firmly established by an apostle their whole religious belief is founded upon, just as the SDA church has built their faulty belief on the "Three Angel's Message" because of the person who led the 'bondservants' astray as found in Rev. 2:18-25. Satan is a master at deception and God knew that only a few would find this out and not accept this false (deep things from Satan) belief, as found in Rev. 3:4.

John, no comment to my last post? there is a lot of meat in that post. And yet it is only scratching the surface. We need to discuss these statements.

sky

Sky.
I would be happy to respond to your latest post but for one thing: none of the references that you cited come from Scripture (defined as the OT and the part of the New Testament that is given by eyewitnesses to the life and ministry of Jesus Christ).

This is disturbing to me. I question the validity of the author of your citations as being legitimate and having the authority that should only be given to verifiable Scripture. Do you personally believe that the author of the quotations you cite is a true prophet of the Living God, and has the authority as that of Scripture? If you do then would you please give me your reasons for believing as you do.

Thanks,
MM