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#227317 - 03/16/09 08:09 AM How To Kill Adventist Education
jlbyrd Offline
Getting the hang of posting

Registered: 02/02/09
Posts: 81
Loc: Maryland


To view the following chapter in PDF format please visit http://www.adventistbookcenter.com/olink.tpl?sku=9780828024198

Quote:
How To Kill Adventist Education (and How to Give it a Fighting Chance) by Shane Anderson

Chapter 1 - How We Didn’t Quite Get Into This Mess


    When fixing a problem, it’s helpful to know not merely what it is, but what caused it. So let’s look at a vital question: What brought Adventist education into the difficulties it currently faces?
    When I have asked concerned Adventists this question, they give a fairly limited range of answers, such as the following:
    “I don’t know.”
    “Parents just aren’t committed to Adventist institutions anymore.”
    “Adventist education is too expensive.”
    “We don’t market our schools effectively enough. If more people knew about them, they would be thriving.”
   The trouble with such answers is twofold. First, they are usually followed by conversations that are lamentably short. A bit of speculation followed by a moving on to other subjects seems to satisfy our limited curiosity on the topic (or perhaps our fatalism sees further conversation as pointless). Second, while these answers all contain elements of helpful truth (with the possible exception of the first example), they don’t grasp the true depth of the problem. Let’s take a moment to analyze each of the last three answers briefly.

The Death of Brand Loyalty
    Take the idea of declining commitment to Adventist institutions. In days past, Adventists often took pride in their highly developed subculture (though we rarely put it in those terms). We had our own publications, our own traditions (popcorn and fruit at sundown on Sabbath), and of course, our own schools. In addition, we even had our own manufacturing facilities that produced choice morsels of food that no self-respecting Adventist potluck would be without. With only a little tongue-in-cheek, we could loudly proclaim that “our hope is built on nothing less than Worthington and Pacific Press.”
   But today, there is little doubt that the heady days of Adventist brand loyalty are becoming a thing of the past. Many Adventists understand this intuitively already, but I’ll share just one example of this trend in action to illustrate.
   According to Harold Lee, former president of the Columbia Union Conference, a comparative study between Adventists and 28 other Protestant denominations “reveals members are giving [money] far less today than in the past. In 1968 giving was at 10.8 percent of after-tax income. By 1996 it had declined to 4.5 percent. This decline represents a 58% decrease in the portion of income being given by church members. … Church members are voting with their feet and with their dollars.”
   This leads to the obvious conclusion that Adventists are increasingly spending less and less to purchase Adventist “products”—educational or otherwise. How come?
   Too often—particularly among older members—the response is simply that we aren’t as loyal to Adventist institutions as we ought to be … as though that were a complete answer in itself. Far too often, members and education leaders that I have personally talked with in various portions of the United States have repeatedly retreated to this simplistic explanation, almost as though it were still 1955 and that institutional loyalty was still a widely-held, finely-tuned, and much-lauded part of the Adventist mindset.
   But it simply is not! Dedication to the “Adventist brand” is waning heavily … and the problems with Adventist education go much deeper than a mere dearth of institutional loyalty. In fact, flagging enthusiasm for SDA “brands” is not a core cause of Adventist educational decline, but rather another symptom of it (albeit an important one). Think of it this way: Do we really believe that there are large numbers of passionate, highly-committed Seventh-day Adventists—who also just happen to think that a school that would teach their children that very same Adventism is not worth considering? Of course not. Surely what we’re seeing here is a lack of commitment not just to our schools or other institutions, but to Adventism itself. Here is the core of our current crisis (as we will discuss further shortly).
   Please note that I’m not saying that if you send your kids to non-Adventist schools that you’re not an Adventist. But I am most certainly declaring that we currently have large numbers of baptized Seventh-day Adventists—paid clergy and laity—who, while they think much of Christ and His grace, don’t have much regard for Adventist claims to having a unique mission in the world. Furthermore, Adventism has spent much of the past two decades attempting to move itself into mainstream Western culture, and in so doing Adventism’s reason for being has been, in my opinion, clouded—and thus, unavoidably, it’s educational system has been obscured as well. Again, more on this in chapter 2 and subsequent chapters.

Too Costly?
   What about the common thought that Adventist education is too expensive?
    Certainly, Adventist education is far from free (in some cases, exceedingly far). And, as we saw earlier, there exists a definite trend away from spending money on church-related institutions, one that certainly contributes both directly and indirectly to the perceptions of educational cost.
   But the trouble with claiming high expense as a major reason for educational decline is that, depending on the school in question, such a claim can be answered correctly both “no, it’s not too expensive” and “yes, it is too expensive”. Here’s how such a thing can be so:.
    Let’s take the “no, it’s not too expensive” crowd first. Proponents of Adventist education have often answered the charge of being overpriced with sound financial information to the contrary. They point out, for instance, that their particular Adventist school teaches Adventist values both by example and verbal instruction. For committed Adventists, this is of immense importance. Additionally, proponents note that if we also think in terms of above-average academics as well as extra-curricular activities (cultural field trips, sports, advanced classes for qualified students, etc.) at their school, the “inexpensiveness” of Adventist education becomes even more apparent. They further point out that there is precious little financial profit—if any—built into the tuition and fees of Adventist schools--parents are paying for what they’re getting, and often at a price that approaches bargain status.
   This can be doubly true when one compares certain facets of Adventist schools to their public school counterparts. Many of our teachers, for instance—particularly long tenured or post-secondary teachers—receive markedly lower wages in comparison to their peers in the public school system. (Translation: Those high tuition bills aren’t there to make our teachers rich!) Or consider this: In some of the areas in which I’ve been associated with our schools, the expense required to educate one student in an Adventist school has been significantly lower than that required in the area public schools. Of course, Adventist parents, even though they may send their kids to Adventist schools, still have to pay local and state taxes. But the cost comparison between the two systems is nonetheless helpful in shedding light on the relative affordability of many of our schools.
   All this adds up to the conclusion that, when compared to other types of schools, Adventist institutions are often reasonably priced for what’s being offered. (I remember the story of one of our most expensive academies being visited by some non-Adventist parents to see if their child might attend there. When they heard the price of tuition, they immediately and in complete seriousness asked, “What’s wrong with your school?” They couldn’t imagine how a quality Christian education could be so comparatively inexpensive.)
    So based on what their school offers, these proponents argue that, while Adventist education is not what we would call cheap, their particular school is reasonably priced when viewed within an Adventist values, academic, and extra-curricular activity perspective.
   Are they correct?
   Probably so—again, for their particular school. And at the very least, such testimony ought to be good incentive for parents to take a second look at the perceived “over-priced-ness” of their school’s tuition. It may be that upon inspection of the alternatives, they will find that Adventist school to be a relative bargain instead of a bank-busting lemon of an education.
   But what about the “yes, it is too expensive” crowd? Can they, too, be correct in their assessment of Adventist education? They can, and in at least four ways.
   First, for those church members not overly concerned about propagating Adventist values to their children, Adventist education does indeed appear overly expensive. It simply offers a product they are not interested in, and they will instead choose a good Christian school (usually closer to home geographically) or a quality public school.
   Second, there are what we might call the “moderately committed” Adventists who want to send their children to Adventist school, but only if it’s conveniently priced. They truly like their church and wants their children to grow to share that affection through Adventist education, but only as long as it’s relatively easy to do so within their perceived budgetary constraints.
   I say “perceived budgetary constraints” because while this particular type of Adventists truly like their church, they are also fond of their Jet Skis, SUVs, and big-screen TVs. And when push comes to shove, the toys win out over tuition. Thus, for them, school tuition is indeed too expensive.
   (Allow me a brief sermon here. I am not saying it is of necessity a sin to have the toys. Abraham, as I recall, was lavishly wealthy and had the hardware to prove it. But I am saying that hedonism and selfishness may be coming to play far too great a role among some Adventists when it comes to making educational choices for their kids. And if Adventists profess affection for their church and then send their children to non-Adventist schools because it’s “just too expensive” to do otherwise—all the while pouring large chunks of money into fun toys that will nonetheless burn when Jesus returns—then perhaps it’s time for a little honesty. Big tuition bills may not be the problem. Instead it may be misplaced priorities, which leads to the obvious question: Which is more important in the scope of eternity? The toys/cars/house/etc.? Or potentially eternal life for one’s kids? True, Adventist education can’t guarantee that one’s children will be in heaven. But in the spirituality department, it’ll blow our jet skis into the weeds nearly every time.)
   Third, even for Adventists who are heavily committed to their God and their church, there is absolutely no doubt that while Adventist education may be a relative bargain for what you get in return, it can still cost a ton of money! Ten to eighteen thousand dollars for a year at our boarding academies, for instance, is the norm. And that’s for a high school, not a college education! For lower-to-middle income families, that price tag can be a real challenge to meet. (And speaking of high school/college tuition parity, a parent recently remarked to me what a relief it would be to have their student go to James Madison University, a nationally respected school in central Virginia. The reason for that relief? The yearly tuition would be a mere $6,000 per year—about $11,000 less than that charged for a boarding student at the Adventist academy their daughter was graduating from!)
   Keen observers will note that some non-Adventist schools (such as the aforementioned James Madison University) have some financial resources—big endowments, eligibility for certain grants—that we don’t have and thus we can’t be expected to offer their (in some instances) lower prices. Granted. But ultimately that may be beside the point. The bottom line still is that Adventist education, even for the dedicated lower-to-middle income member, is becoming very highly priced indeed. And if the trend of increasing tuition continues, and we do not come up with commensurate financial aid resources, we may not only price ourselves out of the market, we may also eliminate all but the very well-healed.
   Fourth and lastly, for those parents who are deeply concerned about passing on Adventist values, Adventist education too often is also deemed too expensive for them … because the particular school they’re looking at isn’t particularly Adventist. Whether it’s a fuzzy focus on Christ or a lack of emphasis on the unique mission, values, and standards of Adventism, in my experience many of our schools lack a sufficiently Adventist flavor, and Adventist parents increasingly aren’t willing to pay the price to send their kids to such institutions.
   And no wonder such parents are concerned! At the risk of stating the obvious, Adventist education should not only consist of superior academics, outstanding extra-curricular activities, or even superior character development, as important as all these may be. Rather, it seeks to achieve a goal far greater than that-- establishing in our children a personal relationship with Jesus Christ that they may be life-long Seventh-day Adventist witnesses for Him. And if that unique goal is absent, devout Adventist parents rightly look at high tuition prices and deem correctly that they are indeed too expensive! At the risk of understatement, the “Adventist flavor” issue is vital, and we will discuss it more shortly.
   Obviously, the question of the price of tuition is a major concern when discerning the causes of Adventist educational decline. We’ll explore ways to deal with this in chapter 18.

Are We Poorly Marketed?
   What about the idea that inferior marketing accounts for a large share of our schools’ demise?
    I mean no harm when I say that, in my experience, many of our schools (and churches, for that matter), while not intentionally so, are not experts in presenting themselves to their communities. Most school leaders understandably are not marketing professionals and may lack the money, time, and other resources to become marketing-savvy.
   But that said, let’s be certain we understand whom we feel that we are missing through a lack of marketing skill. Almost always, when I’ve heard Adventists calling for better promotion of our schools, the goal is to try to reach non-Adventists—an intriguing focus given our recent “marketing history.”
   Most people would agree that the promotional programs of many of our schools today, challenged though they are, are in many ways an improvement when compared to those of the schools of the 1970s and 1980s. In those days mass-mailings, community focus groups, demographic studies, niche marketing techniques, etc., were not high on most of our schools to-do lists. But here’s the irony: While Adventist education is struggling today, on the whole it was thriving 20 and 30 years ago—a time when our marketing efforts were supposedly inferior. Why did we thrive back then, even with sub-par marketing approaches?
   It is not because of some mysterious magnetism that we had in the 1970s and 1980s (though I’ve always thought that those big-hair and polyester pants pictures on our brochures from that era did have a certain magnetism about them…), but rather something much more mundane that we discussed earlier in this chapter: Adventists of that time naturally filled our schools. It’s just what we as Adventists did (though most did not do so mindlessly—they had a reason for their choice, as we’ll explore later). Adventist parents had Adventist kids who enrolled in Adventist schools.
   But today, they don’t—certainly not in the numbers they did in the past. And since most schools often aren’t sure why they don’t, they can’t pursue those Adventists with the proper enticements. So we have instead turned to marketing to non-Adventists. “If we can just get the word out about the great things going on at our school, non-Adventist parents will be much more likely to send their kids to our school,” we say. And certainly some non-Adventist students would come to our schools if they were properly marketed to.
   But not many.
    I wish I could say otherwise, but experience is a good teacher, and with very few exceptions, my observation has been that even the best of marketing to non-Adventists rarely yields the results that we crave. The scenario I’ve encountered usually runs something like this. An Adventist school gets another drop in enrollment. The board convenes and determines that marketing to the community is the answer. After much thought and many late nights, they have a stack of shiny, high-quality brochures printed up. They form a plan of attack, with the principal and/or board members setting up meetings with various community leaders, students doing door-to-door work, etc.—all in an effort to get the word out about the legitimately great things going on at that Adventist school. And then … few—if any—from the community sign up the next school year. The principle is frustrated, the school is out a chunk of change, and the enrollment continues its downward slide.
   And why don’t those community families register their kids after seeing our shiny brochures and hearing our heart-felt spiels? There are a number of reasons, but right near the top is because we Adventists are unique—and in the eyes of many non-Adventists, downright strange. For instance, we go to church on the “wrong” day; we belong to a comparatively small but growing “cult”; and we seem to enjoy substantial amounts of vegetarian food (though I have learned that this last point was not nearly so weird in Seattle as it is in my current home in rural Virginia). And non-Adventist, Sunday-going (and non-Sunday going), mainstream, carnivorous parents generally sense this strangeness and are accordingly cautious. They understand that schools tend to teach values that last a lifetime. And so they rightly ask: “Do we want our children to become Adventists?” A reasonable chance of that happening exists if their kids go to an Adventist school. So these parents are careful, and in my experience, rarely choose to come to our schools in any significant numbers. Our schools in this sense (and, I should add, in this Division) are not generally the evangelistic powerhouses that some have imagined them to be.
   (I must point out that this is not to say that I agree with the tired old saw that declares “Adventist churches are small and should be because we have a unique message.” I do not believe this, and as far as local congregations are concerned, we need to learn that our uniqueness is our best calling card when it comes to public and personal evangelism. But I hasten to add that there is a vastly different dynamic that occurs in a local church as compared to that which occurs in a local church school. At the church the parents are usually the guests who are checking Adventism out, then—if the parents give the all clear—the children may possibly follow. But at the local school, while the parent may do some initial scouting out of things, it’s the child who’s day in, day out being exposed to a new and potentially contagious religion—and that reality is simply more than most non-Adventist parents are willing to experiment with. Church? Often, yes. School? Usually no.)
   So what to do?
    In my opinion, marketing to non-Adventists should be done, but only as extra time and money allow. Instead, we should spend the bulk of our time promoting to (drum roll, please) Adventists. After all, the majority of Adventist student-aged kids—the ones who would most naturally come to our schools—already know that our schools exist and still do not attend.
   As noted previously, the statistics regarding this phenomenon are stark: Only 33 percent of eligible SDA students enroll in Adventist schools at both the secondary and college level. Or to put it another way, nearly 70 percent of eligible Adventist high school and college students stay away from our educational institutions!
   They do not attend for a variety of reasons, and we’ll talk about some possible ways to overcome them in a bit. But I’ll spill the beans some now and say that, most of the time, Adventist education and in particular its benefits are grossly under-communicated to our members. Putting an ad in the union paper can be affirming for the already-convinced, but it just doesn’t cut it for most “non-enrolling” Adventists when it comes to being convinced of the necessity of Adventist education. Much more is required, and until the venues, content, and volume of “parent education”—a.k.a., marketing—are improved, we will continue to see Adventist parents choosing to send their students elsewhere.
   So?
   Now that we’ve looked at some secondary causes of the problem of Adventist educational decline—waning commitment to Adventist institutions, tuition costs, and poor marketing—let’s get to the primary causes. I believe the six primary factors behind Adventist educational decline are:
   1. The lack of passion among church-going members for being a “conservative” Seventh-day Adventist.
   2. A misunderstanding of what constitutes biblical discipleship.
   3. Poor pastoral support of Adventist education.
   4. Poor parenting.
   5. The inroads of postmodernism, secularism, and “liberalism” in Adventism
   6. Poor quality schools.
    Knowing almost how we got into this mess will not suffice. Instead we’ve got to uncover these deeper, more core reasons why Adventist education is in decline. Only then can we understand what steps to take to move our schools back into health. Part two will thus look at each one of the above causes in detail.
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#227479 - 03/16/09 09:32 PM Re: How To Kill Adventist Education [Re: jlbyrd]
Bravus Online   content
Husband and Father


Registered: 09/04/04
Posts: 10548
Loc: Brisbane, Australia
7. A push by Adventist schools to just become expensive private schools serving the wealthy.
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In my tribe it is customary to support our assertions with evidence.

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#227506 - 03/16/09 11:16 PM Re: How To Kill Adventist Education [Re: Bravus]
Woody Offline
Swiss n Swedish American


Registered: 12/09/06
Posts: 21689
Loc: A citizen of Heaven
When I last was on our church school board ... I looked into this charge that Bravus makes. I found that we were one of the cheapest private schools in the area. In fact ... because it was so cheap ... we got many bad influences in our schools due to the kids that had been kicked out of public schools from non SDA homes.

I actually felt we should raise the cost because of all the bad drug influences that were coming into our church school.
_________________________
Lord, make me the person my dog thinks I am.
“When the enemy comes in like a flood, and seeks to overwhelm you with the thought of your sin, tell him: "I know I am a sinner. If I were not, I could not go to the Saviour.” 1 SM 325
"Christ will always accept the faith that puts its trust in Him." - Andrew Murray (1828-1917)
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#227530 - 03/17/09 03:32 AM Re: How To Kill Adventist Education [Re: Woody]
dgrimm60 Offline


Registered: 08/19/01
Posts: 22323
Loc: dickson tenn
HEY ALL

WELL of my 3 sons this is how there education went...

oldest son home school for 10 grades then grades 11--12
S.D.A. Academy...then S.D.A. COLLEGE...
middle son home school 6 grades then S.D.A SCHOOL until
grade 12...then public college...
youngest son home school 4 years then S.D.A. SCHOOLS
until grade 10....then public high school... then
he went to trade school...

but the 1st son I WAS married 2nd son we got divorced
when he was in academy 3rd son was in S.D.A. elementary

I AM sure this had a bearing on it but the cost was
also a factory....


dgrimm60

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#228012 - 03/18/09 08:31 PM Re: How To Kill Adventist Education [Re: dgrimm60]
Bravus Online   content
Husband and Father


Registered: 09/04/04
Posts: 10548
Loc: Brisbane, Australia
I don't think I necessarily said it was happening everywhere, but in my experience in Australia, I know I probably couldn't now afford to send my kids to the school I went to. It's gone from being a service to church members, with significant scholarships and support for poor ones, to being quite expensive, but more even than the price it's the attitude. It's all about fancy uniforms, aping the private schools, about school sports and high academic achievement, rather than about humble faith and learning. It's not all of the problem, and from the sounds of what Redwood says it's not the case everywhere, but it's certainly part of the problem here.

And, frankly, I just can't see the approach Shane Anderson advocates working... others' mileage may vary.
_________________________
In my tribe it is customary to support our assertions with evidence.

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#228352 - 03/20/09 04:22 AM Re: How To Kill Adventist Education [Re: Bravus]
daniels
Unregistered


hi guys,m i am new here













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#228359 - 03/20/09 06:23 AM Re: How To Kill Adventist Education [Re: ]
pkrause Online   content


Registered: 03/24/00
Posts: 14208
Loc: Lancaster,MA,USA
Welcome daniels, and enjoy the fellowship.

pk
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pk


"Ask not what your Country can do for you, ask what you can do for your Country" - President John F. Kennedy

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#228732 - 03/21/09 10:39 PM Re: How To Kill Adventist Education [Re: Bravus]
carolaa Offline


Registered: 03/22/05
Posts: 3443
Loc: Texas
Originally Posted By: Bravus
I don't think I necessarily said it was happening everywhere, but in my experience in Australia, I know I probably couldn't now afford to send my kids to the school I went to. It's gone from being a service to church members, with significant scholarships and support for poor ones, to being quite expensive, but more even than the price it's the attitude. It's all about fancy uniforms, aping the private schools, about school sports and high academic achievement, rather than about humble faith and learning. It's not all of the problem, and from the sounds of what Redwood says it's not the case everywhere, but it's certainly part of the problem here.

And, frankly, I just can't see the approach Shane Anderson advocates working... others' mileage may vary.


From my observation, I have come to the conclusion that SDA schools have begun to major in the minors, as you allude to. It used to be that we were service oriented, but it seems like we don't care about the individual students and families much any more, and helping with tuition is only part of that. I have found it difficult to find an SDA school that has high academic standards *and* good Christian staff as role models.

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#228799 - 03/22/09 09:41 AM Re: How To Kill Adventist Education [Re: carolaa]
Aubrey Offline


Registered: 02/23/09
Posts: 979
Originally Posted By: carolaa, emphasis in bold mine
From my observation, I have come to the conclusion that SDA schools have begun to major in the minors, as you allude to. It used to be that we were service oriented, but it seems like we don't care about the individual students and families much any more, and helping with tuition is only part of that. I have found it difficult to find an SDA school that has high academic standards *and* good Christian staff as role models.


The lack of compassion for individual students and families is the cause of the decline not only in our schools, but in our churches and church clubs as well.

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#228811 - 03/22/09 11:18 AM Re: How To Kill Adventist Education [Re: Aubrey]
olger Online   content


Registered: 12/26/05
Posts: 6306
Loc: Ohio
Originally Posted By: Aubrey
Originally Posted By: carolaa, emphasis in bold mine
From my observation, I have come to the conclusion that SDA schools have begun to major in the minors, as you allude to. It used to be that we were service oriented, but it seems like we don't care about the individual students and families much any more, and helping with tuition is only part of that. I have found it difficult to find an SDA school that has high academic standards *and* good Christian staff as role models.


The lack of compassion for individual students and families is the cause of the decline not only in our schools, but in our churches and church clubs as well.
Incorrect madam. While it may be one factor among many, there are other elements that lead to lethargy & disillusionment. Worldliness is one of them.

regards,

og
_________________________
"Please don't feed the drama queens.."

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#228833 - 03/22/09 01:02 PM Re: How To Kill Adventist Education [Re: olger]
Aubrey Offline


Registered: 02/23/09
Posts: 979
Originally Posted By: olger
Originally Posted By: Aubrey
Originally Posted By: carolaa, emphasis in bold mine
From my observation, I have come to the conclusion that SDA schools have begun to major in the minors, as you allude to. It used to be that we were service oriented, but it seems like we don't care about the individual students and families much any more, and helping with tuition is only part of that. I have found it difficult to find an SDA school that has high academic standards *and* good Christian staff as role models.


The lack of compassion for individual students and families is the cause of the decline not only in our schools, but in our churches and church clubs as well.
Incorrect madam. While it may be one factor among many, there are other elements that lead to lethargy & disillusionment. Worldliness is one of them.

regards,

og


olger,

Will you please list all the reasons that the attendance is deteriorating in Adventist schools, churches and clubs? This list will be greatly appreciated so that in the future I may reference it so as not to forget any one element.

Thanks for your cooperation,
Aubrey

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#228838 - 03/22/09 01:26 PM Re: How To Kill Adventist Education [Re: Aubrey]
Liz Online   polarhug


Registered: 04/19/05
Posts: 2159
Loc: Texas
I personally think "lack of compassion" is a huge one. While we don't have any SDA schools anywhere near us, we also don't have Pathfinders or Adventures, due largely because of lack of compassion. It certainly isn't because we don't have a lot of kids that could benefit from these clubs.
_________________________
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#228846 - 03/22/09 03:22 PM Re: How To Kill Adventist Education [Re: Liz]
Jeannieb43 Offline
Princess of Pasadena


Registered: 12/29/01
Posts: 3218
Loc: California
All it takes to get a Pathfinder Club started is for a concerned parent to do it. Get some supplies from the Conference office; put a notice in the church bulletin; phone all families with kids of that age; plan an invigorating program for the kids, and do it!

The kids themselves will keep it going, once there's something there that they enjoy doing.

They'll thank you for years afterwards.
_________________________
Jeannie


...Change is inevitable; growth is optional....

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#228849 - 03/22/09 03:48 PM Re: How To Kill Adventist Education [Re: Jeannieb43]
Aubrey Offline


Registered: 02/23/09
Posts: 979
It also takes commitment from parents--to get the youth to the meetings on time, to help with the carpooling for the campouts, to pay for the uniforms, to help with the memorization work required at home, to remind the youth to read and do their work.

It takes a church--willing to open it's doors for the club to meet, to be supportive in fund-raising, to attend induction and investment services, to provide enough staff to support a large club (one teacher for 25 Pathfinders just doesn't cut it when there's at least 6 different classes to teach).

In the 6+ years I've been involved in a Pathfinder club, I have never seen the youth take the initiative to "keep it going". They have the desire to be there, to do the work while at the meetings--but because of their age, they simply cannot take over the club. They cannot drive, they are not responsible for risk management issues; and frankly, with the issues that come up in meetings these days (drug abuse, sexuality, homosexuality, self-injury, anorexia/bulimia, suicides, etc), they really shouldn't be the ones to keep it going. It really needs to be adults who run the clubs and provide good, solid mentoring for the youth.

Young people need people who care. Not just one person, but a "people" of persons who care.

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#254440 - 07/07/09 08:25 PM Re: How To Kill Adventist Education [Re: Anonymous]
Richard Holbrook Online   content
Mr. Murphy's daddy


Registered: 07/07/09
Posts: 15598
Loc: North Carolina
Hi Daniels, I'm new too. I wonder, what is the difference between reply and quick reply? anyone?

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#254550 - 07/08/09 08:14 AM Re: How To Kill Adventist Education [Re: Richard Holbrook]
dgrimm60 Offline


Registered: 08/19/01
Posts: 22323
Loc: dickson tenn
HEY DANIELS AND RICH4TRUTH

welcome i think there is a welcome forum


but hope you like it here


dgrimm60

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#254643 - 07/08/09 05:34 PM Re: How To Kill Adventist Education [Re: Aubrey]
carolaa Offline


Registered: 03/22/05
Posts: 3443
Loc: Texas
You're right, Aubrey. It's a HUGE commitment for the parents and church to make. Many simply don't have that kind of time and money to commit - which is why I prefer AY or some other youth group type of program as opposed to Pathfinders.

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#254647 - 07/08/09 05:53 PM Re: How To Kill Adventist Education [Re: carolaa]
Aubrey Offline


Registered: 02/23/09
Posts: 979
That's the whole problem though, Carolaa. Time and money, but particularly time--is not spent on/with the children. It is a HUGE responsibility given by God.

What sort of activities do AY groups do? What sort of time commitment is given to the kids in church? What sort of time commitment is given to kids at home?

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#254649 - 07/08/09 06:02 PM Re: How To Kill Adventist Education [Re: Aubrey]
Shane Offline
Administrator of Foro Adventista


Registered: 02/02/02
Posts: 22156
Loc: Rio Grande Valley, Texas
I support Adventist education at least at the elementary level. I think it is less important at the high school level and even lesser important at the university level. I think it is absolutely crazy that we have students paying for an Adventist college education with student loans.

In my area our Adventist school is less expensive than any of the other private/church schools in the area.

Active parenting is the best thing any of us can do to improve the education of our children. A child with an active parent going to an academically poor school can outperform a child with an uninvolved parent attending an excellent school.

Pathfinders is not only for Adventist children but for outreach. My goodness! It is a ministry. The Texas conference has a fantastically wonderful Pathfinder program. This is a life-changing ministry for both the kids and adults involved in it. Churches that are not growing and don't have an active Pathfinder program need not scratch their head and wonder what is wrong any longer. Get on the stick and get one going. There are even Pathfinder brochures available to pass out to nonbelievers to invite them to join the club. Change the life of a child and change the world.
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#254650 - 07/08/09 06:07 PM Re: How To Kill Adventist Education [Re: Aubrey]
carolaa Offline


Registered: 03/22/05
Posts: 3443
Loc: Texas
I haven't read anything in the Bible or elsewhere that says Pathfinders was given by God. It's only a tool. AY and/or youth groups can be just as fun as Pathfinders, if not moreso, for a fraction of the cost. Usually they meet weekly. They might have a Bible study/discussion, put on a skit, play Bible games, do community service, etc. The point is to bond and train in a spiritual atmosphere, and they don't need a military type program to do that.

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#254652 - 07/08/09 06:15 PM Re: How To Kill Adventist Education [Re: Shane]
carolaa Offline


Registered: 03/22/05
Posts: 3443
Loc: Texas
Originally Posted By: Shane
Pathfinders is not only for Adventist children but for outreach. My goodness! It is a ministry.


It's been my observation and experience that youth groups are even more evangelistic than Pathfinders because they are not so demanding. Kids from broken homes find it difficult to attend anything regularly, so a youth group is better suited for them because there's no worrying or pressure about missing a class or a practice. The idea is just to make friends and be welcoming.

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#254658 - 07/08/09 07:05 PM Re: How To Kill Adventist Education [Re: carolaa]
Gail Offline
Mom to lots of chickies


Registered: 12/09/02
Posts: 18589
Loc: Buon giorno, Principessa
I feel like I need one of Pam's "drinking his coffee by the computer" smilies right about now...

Interesting comments! :)
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Most things that I hand over to God have my claw marks on them- Annie Lamott

And the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever. Isaiah 32:17

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#254663 - 07/08/09 07:22 PM Re: How To Kill Adventist Education [Re: carolaa]
Aubrey Offline


Registered: 02/23/09
Posts: 979
Originally Posted By: carolaa
I haven't read anything in the Bible or elsewhere that says Pathfinders was given by God. It's only a tool. AY and/or youth groups can be just as fun as Pathfinders, if not moreso, for a fraction of the cost. Usually they meet weekly. They might have a Bible study/discussion, put on a skit, play Bible games, do community service, etc. The point is to bond and train in a spiritual atmosphere, and they don't need a military type program to do that.


I don't think I said that Pathfinders was given by God. I certainly never intended to say that. My intent was only to say that the responsibility for upbringing (which includes spending oodles of time and money--more importantly time) is God given.

I agree, it is only a tool.

AY and/or youth groups can be just as fun as Pathfinders. I agree. Not sure how much your Pathfinder group charges, but it's not really a costly function in our church. We average about $30 a year per Pathfinder. Most families can cover that cost--and for those that can't, I and a few others will pick up the tab.

Not sure how "militaristic" your Pathfinder group experiences have been, but I can assure you, our's is not militaristic in any sense other than wearing uniforms and learning marching drills.

Anyway. I've somehow derailed this thread by defending the Pathfinder organisation. Never meant to do that, either.

I think it's great that churches have an active AY and/or youth group program. Our's does not. We have the Pathfinder organisation and this is the only group with which I am familiar. No one has offered a youth group or AY program at our church. Believe me, I'd be thrilled if they did!

My point is only that if we do not want Adventist education to fail, if we do not want to lose our children to the things of the world, then we, as adults need to step up to bat and offer them something better in it's stead.

It is our responsibility to train the youth, to bring them up into a life with an ever-present focus on God. If we would spend our time and our money on these kids, if we would make them a top priority in life, we can bring them into a relationship with God.

It doesn't have to be Pathfinders, it doesn't have to be AY or a youth group, it doesn't have to be Sabbath School or special interest clubs; but it does have to be something. Whatever that something is, it has to be led by people who care, by people who are willing to put children as a top priority in life. Those people need the support of others to make it happen.

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#254671 - 07/08/09 07:53 PM Re: How To Kill Adventist Education [Re: Aubrey]
Shane Offline
Administrator of Foro Adventista


Registered: 02/02/02
Posts: 22156
Loc: Rio Grande Valley, Texas
I have not seen AY used as outreach. In the churches I have attended, AY is a Sabbath afternoon service that is organized and ran by the youth. It is very much tied to Adventism. It would be great if it could be used for outreach but I would think inviting someone to AY would be very much like inviting someone to church service or prayer meeting.

Pathfinders is much more like Boy Scouts or Girl Scouts. Most people do not feel like we are trying to play a bait and catch when we invite them (and we shouldn't be). Pathfinders really is a way to reach out to the community and provide a positive contribution to it.
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#254674 - 07/08/09 08:02 PM Re: How To Kill Adventist Education [Re: Shane]
Woody Offline
Swiss n Swedish American


Registered: 12/09/06
Posts: 21689
Loc: A citizen of Heaven
Just got back from an AY outing the end of June.

There were more non-SDA than SDAs .... it was at some rustic cabins.(We brought our trailer). Some of the youth were smokers. But, they need to learn about Jesus also. I was happy they felt comfortable coming. Some I had become acquainted with last year. So it was good to see them again. But this is a good opening.

If you had looked at our group you would have clearly said that they ain't Adventists. Well .... the majority weren't.
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“When the enemy comes in like a flood, and seeks to overwhelm you with the thought of your sin, tell him: "I know I am a sinner. If I were not, I could not go to the Saviour.” 1 SM 325
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#254679 - 07/08/09 08:30 PM Re: How To Kill Adventist Education [Re: Woody]
Shane Offline
Administrator of Foro Adventista


Registered: 02/02/02
Posts: 22156
Loc: Rio Grande Valley, Texas
I have never even been involved with a church, or a conference that I know of, that had AY outings. The only AY I am familiar with is Sabbath afternoon service. This sounds like a well kept secret.
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#254695 - 07/08/09 08:58 PM Re: How To Kill Adventist Education [Re: Shane]
carolaa Offline


Registered: 03/22/05
Posts: 3443
Loc: Texas
It's called thinking outside the box. We don't have to limit ourselves to the way things have always been done.

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#254703 - 07/08/09 09:14 PM Re: How To Kill Adventist Education [Re: Aubrey]
carolaa Offline


Registered: 03/22/05
Posts: 3443
Loc: Texas
Originally Posted By: Aubrey
Not sure how much your Pathfinder group charges, but it's not really a costly function in our church. We average about $30 a year per Pathfinder. Most families can cover that cost--and for those that can't, I and a few others will pick up the tab.


Neither AY nor youth groups charge anything. Pathfinders charges sometimes, but I don't know how much and it's not consistent. But the total uniform is about $100. A huge chunk (in my budget) for something that's worn a few times and quickly outgrown.

(I've mentioned this before in a different thread, but I don't believe in charging for church activities. Doing so makes it exclusive in nature, which is contrary to our mission. Ministries should have a budget that covers their expenses. Hmm, I guess calling something a "club" also makes it exclusive.)

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#254772 - 07/09/09 08:16 AM Re: How To Kill Adventist Education [Re: carolaa]
Aubrey Offline


Registered: 02/23/09
Posts: 979
So, who pays for the electricity when your AY or youth group meets? Everything costs money. It's likely there's a line item in your church budget that pays for any incidental expenses incurred by AY or youth group gatherings. Sabbath schools have line items in the budget, as do VBS and Women's Ministries, Men's Ministries, Deaconess functions, and so on and so forth. I would love to see a line item for the Pathfinder group as well--one the would cover the costs of doing activities together.

We could call it a Pathfinder group. It is not exclusive in any way.

Uniform costs don't have to be so high. I know of a group that has a system in place where the uniforms are "handed down" from year to year as the Pathfinders outgrow them. By the way, that same church is very involved with the youth programs. They do have a line item for the Pathfinders in the church budget. All expenses are paid for in advance--through fundraising by the Pathfinders, by their parents and by the church members. They have a strong group of about 20 Pathfinders, they have 3 leaders and have been a strong group for nearly 30 years now. At least half the membership in their group is from the community--most of those go on to receive baptism and their families join the church. What's more, they are from one of the poorest areas in our conference.

All it takes is dedication to the youth. Everyone may not have money, but everyone does have time.

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#254779 - 07/09/09 08:28 AM Re: How To Kill Adventist Education [Re: carolaa]
Aubrey Offline


Registered: 02/23/09
Posts: 979
Originally Posted By: carolaa
It's called thinking outside the box. We don't have to limit ourselves to the way things have always been done.


I agree! Change can happen everywhere. Taking a quick look at the history of Pathfinders, it's easy to see all the changes that have been made over the years. From the very beginning, it's clear to see how intertwined Pathfinders are with AY--in fact, some might say so intertwined, they are one in the same thing.

1907
Missionary Volunteer Society was founded

1908
Junior Reading Course
First MV Day, March 7 1909 Junior MV Societies were formed

1911
MV Leaflet Series began

1922
JMV (now AJY) Progressive Classes introduced particularly Friend and Companion classes
A. W. Spalding and Harriet Hold advocate basic idea of Pathfinder Clubs

1926
The first junior camp was held in USA (Town Line Lake, Michigan)

1927
Master Comrade (now Master Guide) was officially approved

1928
Southern California's first youth camp, San Gabriel Canyon
Vocational honors introduced

1929
"Pathfinder" name first used at a summer camp in Southeastern California

1930
Pre-JMV/AJY classes developed 1931
First Master Comrade Investiture

1932
First JMV Pathfinder Camp, Idyllwild, purchased

1938
Master Comrade Manual published

1946
The first conference-sponsored Pathfinder Club in Riverside, California
Pathfinder Club emblem designed by John H. Hancock

1947
The first North American Division Youth Congress was held in San Francisco

1948
Helen Hobbs made the Pathfinder flag
First area Pathfinder coordinators appointed (Central California Conference)

1949
Henry Bergh composed the Pathfinder song

1950
General Conference authorized the JMV Pathfinder clubs for world field
Pathfinder Staff Training Course and How to Start a Pathfinder Club booklet was published
Explorer class added

1951
The first Pathfinder Fair was held on September 23 in Dinuba, California
Master Comrade was changed to Master Guide
Pathfinder Staff Manual published

1952
Pathfinder song copyrighted

1954
The first Pathfinder Camporee was held on May 7-9 in Idyllwild, California

1957
JMV Pathfinder Day was added to the church calendar

1960
The first Union Camporee was held on April 11-14, Lone Pine, California

1962
MV Pathfinder Field Guide published
Pathfinder Drill Manual published

1963
John Hancock elected as World Pathfinder Director

1965
JMV Handbook was combined with Master Guide Manual as MV Handbook

1966
Pioneer Class was added
The first North American MV Camp Directory was published

1970
Pioneer Class name was changed to Ranger Class (8th Grade)

1974
The Pathfinder Staff Manual was revised and expanded

1979
Missionary Volunteer (MV) was changed to Adventist Youth (AY)
Junior Missionary Volunteer (JMV) was changed to Adventist Junior Youth (AJY)
The Pre-AJY class was changed to Adventurers Club(4 yrs. - 4th grade)


1980
Les Pitton was elected as North American Division (NAD) Youth Director
MV Camp Directory was changed to World Adventist Youth Camp Directory 1981
Pathfinders Sing Songbook was published

1982
The New Pathfinder World replaced the MV World
Voyager Class added
NAD Pathfinder uniform revised

1985
Norm Middag appointed as NAD Pathfinder Director
The first NAD Pathfinder Camporee was held in Camp Hale, Colorado, USA

1987
The current NAD Pathfinder emblem was designed by Norm Middag

1989
NAD Pathfinder Honors Manual revised, new were honors added
Friendship Camporee in Pennsylvania, sponsored by the Columbia Union
New AY Classwork Curriculum integrated in Pathfinder curriculum
Adventurer Program became an independent program from Pathfinders

1993
Restructuring resulted in Office of Pathfinder Ministries

1994
"Dare to Care" International Pathfinder Camporee, August 2-6, Denver, Colorado

1995
Teen Leadership Training (TLT) Program established for training High school students (grades 9-12)
First Pathfinder Web Site established
First Pathfinder Club web page, Fort Worth Eagles, Fort Worth, Texas

1996
Basic Staff Training, Pathfinder Leadership Award (PLA), & Pathfinder Instructor Award (PIA) curriculum developed

1997
Willie Oliver became a NAD Director of Pathfinder & Camp Ministries
NAD Pathfinder Honors Manual revised, new honors added
NAD Pathfinder Staff Manual updated

1999 NAD Pathfinder Web Site established
Discover the Power International Camporee held in Osh kosh WI (USA)

2000
Elder James Black appointed to be NAD Youth Ministries director, overseeing Youth, Pathfinder, Adventurer, and Camp Ministries
Pathfinder Uniform changed to Black & Tan

2001
AY Honor Handbook added 17 new Honors as well as several International Honors.

2003
NAD Youth Ministries developed a Website Community ministering to Youth, Pathfinders, Adventurers, and Camping Ministries (YPAC).

2004
NAD Pathfinder Ministries (under the leadership of James Black and Ron Whitehead) hosted the "Faith on Fire" International NAD Pathfinder Camporee in Oshkosh, WI (USA) on August 9 - 14, 2004.

2009
NAD to host the "Courage to Stand" International Pathfinder Camporee in Oshkosh, WI (USA) on August 11-15, 2009.



Edited by Aubrey (07/09/09 08:30 AM)

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#254781 - 07/09/09 08:40 AM Re: How To Kill Adventist Education [Re: Aubrey]
olger Online   content


Registered: 12/26/05
Posts: 6306
Loc: Ohio
Thinking "outside the box" can be a flowery tapestry drawn over a desire to "think outside the Book."



regards,

g
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#254782 - 07/09/09 08:44 AM Re: How To Kill Adventist Education [Re: carolaa]
Shane Offline
Administrator of Foro Adventista


Registered: 02/02/02
Posts: 22156
Loc: Rio Grande Valley, Texas
Originally Posted By: carolaa

Neither AY nor youth groups charge anything. Pathfinders charges sometimes, but I don't know how much and it's not consistent. But the total uniform is about $100. A huge chunk (in my budget) for something that's worn a few times and quickly outgrown.


How many times is a wedding dress worn? How about a Prom dress? Some things have such special meaning that they need not be used often to be of great value. Pathfinders is an awesome ministry that changes the lives of children. I have seen it many times.

Recently I attended a funeral of a man in his mid-twenties. He had been active in Pathfinders as a teenager and the slide show shown at his funeral was filled with Pathfinder pictures. The family had asked his friends to email them pictures so they could put a slide show together. Most of his friends had also been involved in Pathfinders so many of the pictures were from Pathfinders. At his funeral the Pathfinders, in full dress uniform, had a service for him. Friend after friend that honored him told of cherished childhood memories they shared together from Pathfinders.

Many children make their decision for baptism at Pathfinder campouts and rallies. The Paathfinder dress uniform doesn't get used much but it means so much to so many of those kids when it is used. It gives them a sense of belonging and of accomplishment. Let's not say that isn't worth the price of the uniform. It is worth so much more.

If there are needy children that cannot afford it the church can provide funds for them. However most children can afford these items. Most homes have digital TVs, Play Stations, brand-name shoes and so many luxuries. It is really just a matter of making the children a priority. Which takes us back to the subject.

One reason Adventist education is having problems is that the kids are not the priority. I want to have my big house, new car, credit cards, my vacation, new clothing, etc.
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#254783 - 07/09/09 09:04 AM Re: How To Kill Adventist Education [Re: Shane]
Aubrey Offline


Registered: 02/23/09
Posts: 979
Thanks for bringing us back to subject, Shane.

Originally Posted By: Shane
One reason Adventist education is having problems is that the kids are not the priority. I want to have my big house, new car, credit cards, my vacation, new clothing, etc.

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#254802 - 07/09/09 09:55 AM Re: How To Kill Adventist Education [Re: Aubrey]
dgrimm60 Offline


Registered: 08/19/01
Posts: 22323
Loc: dickson tenn
HEY SHANE


well that is an interesting thought about priorities


dgrimm60

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#255611 - 07/12/09 03:00 PM Re: How To Kill Adventist Education [Re: dgrimm60]
Ted Oplinger Offline


Registered: 02/18/02
Posts: 1592
Loc: Bryan, Texas
When my church decided to form a church school, it was extensively quoted from EGW's writings how necessary it was to do it for the children. All the right buttons were pushed. In a steeply divided vote, the school formation went forward.

What was sadly neglected was EGW's counsel that those same schools and ministries are to be run as efficient businesses, and not merely on emotion, prayer, and the deep pockets of a couple of people.

That is how they chose to run it. Those in favor of the school had locked out the rest of the church from input to the operations, and nearly destroyed any opportunity for the school to survive. It has since been righted to a point, but more work needs to be done, as our church was not ready to operate nor support a school at that time. We still aren't, but we're not going to let it go without first trying to put it on good footing and see if it will work.


EGW's counsel would include running our schools with proper business models. Our ventures are to be the envy of the world.

Just a question: can many of our schools take their monthly operation, lay that out as a business model, and try to convince outside capital sources it would be an excellent investment? My church's could not for several years. Perhaps it can in the near future.
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#255619 - 07/12/09 03:24 PM Re: How To Kill Adventist Education [Re: Ted Oplinger]
carolaa Offline


Registered: 03/22/05
Posts: 3443
Loc: Texas
What are you talking about? Don't you have faith? Don't you believe God wants you to have a school? Don't you believe He will work it out?

LOL - you are so right. I've heard it all many, many times. The guilt tactics always work, and the congregation is left mopping up the mess for years to come.


Edited by carolaa (07/12/09 03:25 PM)

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#255633 - 07/12/09 04:01 PM Re: How To Kill Adventist Education [Re: Ted Oplinger]
Gail Offline
Mom to lots of chickies


Registered: 12/09/02
Posts: 18589
Loc: Buon giorno, Principessa
Originally Posted By: Ted_Oplinger

What was sadly neglected was EGW's counsel that those same schools and ministries are to be run as efficient businesses, and not merely on emotion, prayer, and the deep pockets of a couple of people.


Quote:

EGW's counsel would include running our schools with proper business models. Our ventures are to be the envy of the world.

Just a question: can many of our schools take their monthly operation, lay that out as a business model, and try to convince outside capital sources it would be an excellent investment? My church's could not for several years. Perhaps it can in the near future.


Glad that you mentioned that, Ted. Raymond Moore used to talk about how he would take a school that was floundering, put the students on a half-day-work/half-day-bookwork program and take the school out of the red.

There is not much better for building up a child's self-worth than having him/her do practical work. They are gaining work experience and the virtues that come along with that PLUS doing the normal book studies.
_________________________
Gail

Most things that I hand over to God have my claw marks on them- Annie Lamott

And the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever. Isaiah 32:17

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#255644 - 07/12/09 04:27 PM Re: How To Kill Adventist Education [Re: Gail]
Woody Offline
Swiss n Swedish American


Registered: 12/09/06
Posts: 21689
Loc: A citizen of Heaven
Interesting that you would quote Raymond Moore. Have you read much of his works?
_________________________
Lord, make me the person my dog thinks I am.
“When the enemy comes in like a flood, and seeks to overwhelm you with the thought of your sin, tell him: "I know I am a sinner. If I were not, I could not go to the Saviour.” 1 SM 325
"Christ will always accept the faith that puts its trust in Him." - Andrew Murray (1828-1917)
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#255647 - 07/12/09 04:41 PM Re: How To Kill Adventist Education [Re: Woody]
Gail Offline
Mom to lots of chickies


Registered: 12/09/02
Posts: 18589
Loc: Buon giorno, Principessa
Originally Posted By: Redwood
Interesting that you would quote Raymond Moore. Have you read much of his works?


When I was homeschooling, I had just about everything he wrote in the way of books.
_________________________
Gail

Most things that I hand over to God have my claw marks on them- Annie Lamott

And the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever. Isaiah 32:17

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#255648 - 07/12/09 04:44 PM Re: How To Kill Adventist Education [Re: Gail]
Woody Offline
Swiss n Swedish American


Registered: 12/09/06
Posts: 21689
Loc: A citizen of Heaven
Cool ....
_________________________
Lord, make me the person my dog thinks I am.
“When the enemy comes in like a flood, and seeks to overwhelm you with the thought of your sin, tell him: "I know I am a sinner. If I were not, I could not go to the Saviour.” 1 SM 325
"Christ will always accept the faith that puts its trust in Him." - Andrew Murray (1828-1917)
I believe in Hematology.


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#255650 - 07/12/09 04:49 PM Re: How To Kill Adventist Education [Re: Woody]
Gail Offline
Mom to lots of chickies


Registered: 12/09/02
Posts: 18589
Loc: Buon giorno, Principessa
I have a neat story about Dr. Moore.

When my children were small he and Dorothy came to town. I could not afford to pay the registration fee for the series and when I arrived at the venue I told him of my plight.

He walked me up to the registration desk and told them that I was to be registered as his guest.

I never forgot his kindness when I was in need.

I also worked answering questions on a phone line when he came around again, volunteering. I loved talking to other homeschoolers about concerns and problems.
_________________________
Gail

Most things that I hand over to God have my claw marks on them- Annie Lamott

And the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever. Isaiah 32:17

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#255651 - 07/12/09 04:54 PM Re: How To Kill Adventist Education [Re: Gail]
Gail Offline
Mom to lots of chickies


Registered: 12/09/02
Posts: 18589
Loc: Buon giorno, Principessa
About Adventist education, these are my thoughts:

We do not need to be ashamed of the information we have about early childhood education in the Spirit of Prophecy. We don't need to copy the world's methods. Ours work wonderfully and provide a different approach for those children who don't fit the mold of the traditional schoolroom.

We do have a successful self-supporting school in B.C. for those who are interested in the book/work program. It's called Fountainview and is probably accessible online.
_________________________
Gail

Most things that I hand over to God have my claw marks on them- Annie Lamott

And the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever. Isaiah 32:17

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#255669 - 07/12/09 06:01 PM Re: How To Kill Adventist Education [Re: Woody]
pkrause Online   content


Registered: 03/24/00
Posts: 14208
Loc: Lancaster,MA,USA
Not to get off topic, but who is raymond moore?

pk
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#255780 - 07/13/09 12:51 AM Re: How To Kill Adventist Education [Re: pkrause]
Jeannieb43 Offline
Princess of Pasadena


Registered: 12/29/01
Posts: 3218
Loc: California
Raymond Moore is [was] the father of Adventist homeschooling. In fact, he became known all through home schooling circles, not just among Adventists; he authored several books and syllabi for home schoolers. He was a college professor for many years. He died maybe five years ago.
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#255801 - 07/13/09 06:42 AM Re: How To Kill Adventist Education [Re: Jeannieb43]
pkrause Online   content


Registered: 03/24/00
Posts: 14208
Loc: Lancaster,MA,USA
Thanks for the info Jeannieb43. Another question I have than is, did he have any kids and if he did would you know any names. The reason I ask is back in 64-65 when I went to GNYA there was a friend of mine who's name was Harry "skippy" Moore, and I thought that he mentioned that his dad's name was Raymond. So just curious if he is the same person.

pk
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#255946 - 07/13/09 05:02 PM Re: How To Kill Adventist Education [Re: pkrause]
Jeannieb43 Offline
Princess of Pasadena


Registered: 12/29/01
Posts: 3218
Loc: California
Dr. Moore had a son Dennis Moore and a daughter Kathie Moore Kordenbrock.

[from Raymond Moore Obituary, on Google]
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Jeannie


...Change is inevitable; growth is optional....

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#255957 - 07/13/09 05:38 PM Re: How To Kill Adventist Education [Re: Jeannieb43]
Gail Offline
Mom to lots of chickies


Registered: 12/09/02
Posts: 18589
Loc: Buon giorno, Principessa
Originally Posted By: Jeannieb43
Raymond Moore is [was] the father of Adventist homeschooling. In fact, he became known all through home schooling circles, not just among Adventists; he authored several books and syllabi for home schoolers. He was a college professor for many years. He died maybe five years ago.


To expound on this:

I would perhaps call him the pioneer of the modern homeschooling movement, as there have been many people who were home educated throughout history, including Jesus.

Dr. Moore and his wife (Dorothy was a speech specialist) used methods that worked successfully in the one-room schoolhouses, such as use the older to teach the younger and the stronger to teach the weaker. Children learn so much faster from another child than from an adult.

He also really just put the counsels on education that we have into practical, modern language that we can implement easily in today's educational atmosphere.

His books such as Better Late Than Early and Home Grown Kids include both research that he has done himself and SOP principles. They gave me a philosophy that worked without burning us out. He also wrote a book on burnout recovery.

He was conservative in some thinking and way progressive in many others. They were both such neat, down-to-earth people.
_________________________
Gail

Most things that I hand over to God have my claw marks on them- Annie Lamott

And the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever. Isaiah 32:17

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#255962 - 07/13/09 05:54 PM Re: How To Kill Adventist Education [Re: Jeannieb43]
pkrause Online   content


Registered: 03/24/00
Posts: 14208
Loc: Lancaster,MA,USA
Thanks for the info.

pk
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pk


"Ask not what your Country can do for you, ask what you can do for your Country" - President John F. Kennedy

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#256013 - 07/13/09 09:43 PM Re: How To Kill Adventist Education [Re: pkrause]
dgrimm60 Offline


Registered: 08/19/01
Posts: 22323
Loc: dickson tenn
HEY ALL

YES RAYMOND MOORE team up with a MR HEWITT
and for a long time had catalogs for home school
material and books from kindergarten to grade 12
I THINK Mr HEWITT is still in in business either
in WASHINGTON STATE or OREGON


dgrimm60

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#256014 - 07/13/09 09:45 PM Re: How To Kill Adventist Education [Re: dgrimm60]
dgrimm60 Offline


Registered: 08/19/01
Posts: 22323
Loc: dickson tenn
HEY ALL

RAYMOND MOORE was also on the James Dobson radio show
about home schooling


dgrimm60

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#256061 - 07/14/09 01:26 AM Re: How To Kill Adventist Education [Re: dgrimm60]
LynnDel Offline
Possibility person


Registered: 05/06/00
Posts: 3118
Loc: Proposed west-coast beachfront
I wonder, with child labor laws being what they are, if we would now be able to follow Raymond Moore's prescription for half-day work/study at the elementary level.

One of the causes of schools declining, along with Pathfinders and Sabbath Schools, is smaller families. Another is the graying of the church (upward creep of average age of SDA members in the USA).

On a slightly different topic, SDA education expense and the resulting financial stress on families makes it so that fewer members are available to volunteer for church activities, to help their fellow members, or to reach out to the community in service. More kids are latchkey kids because both parents have to work in order to pay for their education.

Which is the better choice: SDA education, with money-strapped parents unable to be involved in the church and therefore can't provide a model for their children, or even have much time for their children -- or public education, with Dad and Mom having the time to parent as they desire? Or does the decision ever come to just that consideration?

LD

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#256073 - 07/14/09 06:11 AM Re: How To Kill Adventist Education [Re: LynnDel]
dgrimm60 Offline


Registered: 08/19/01
Posts: 22323
Loc: dickson tenn
HEY LYNNDEL

these are interesting points about the 1/2 day school
1/2 day work and other about the age of the church creeping
upward

dgrimm60

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#256074 - 07/14/09 06:16 AM Re: How To Kill Adventist Education [Re: dgrimm60]
dgrimm60 Offline


Registered: 08/19/01
Posts: 22323
Loc: dickson tenn
HEY LYNNDEL

I have heard the point of S.D.A. education being
to expensive but then I have also heard that our
S.D.A. church schools are equal to or even less
that other private or church schools


but I do know that cost is a major factory with S.D.A.
parents thinking about putting their child/children in our
church schools


dgrimm60

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#256087 - 07/14/09 08:04 AM Re: How To Kill Adventist Education [Re: LynnDel]
Shane Offline
Administrator of Foro Adventista


Registered: 02/02/02
Posts: 22156
Loc: Rio Grande Valley, Texas
Let me address a couple of things here.

First) the idea that Adventist education is too expensive and many families cannot afford it. Most families can afford it. Only about 20% of families are in the income group that would keep them from being able to send their children to Adventist schools. The smaller family size in the US makes it that much more affordable. A bigger multiple-child discount needs to be offered to large families and subsidized by the local churches supporting the school.

The reason many families "can't afford it" is because they do not have their financial house in order. More than that, they don't even know how to get their financial house in order. Our churches need to serve as financial consultants for their members. This is one of the roles of the stewardship director. Training is available from both Dave Ramsey and Crown Financial Ministries. They both have great programs. Stewardship directors should be holding classes for their church members of all ages. This will not only result in members being able to afford church school but will also increase the amount of money being given to tithes and offerings.

Second) the issue of public school with mom at home or church school with mom working is an important issue. More and more Adventists are going to home schooling. For those mothers that are capable, that is a better option than public school. However the church can still serve a role - and should. Adventist education doesn't have to be formal education with a church school. Adventist education can also be an after-school program. If the kids are in public school or home school, an after-school program can be of great benefit and be run at substantially less money that what a church school costs to run. There are all kinds of after-school programs available for churches to use and this is one of the most effective ways to reach out to the community. the church can charge for the service and subsidize it for poor children.
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#256098 - 07/14/09 09:29 AM Re: How To Kill Adventist Education [Re: Shane]
Aubrey Offline


Registered: 02/23/09
Posts: 979
There are mixed theories on after-school programs. One is that after-school should be a time when children can relax--as their minds have been taxed enough for the day. Another is that this should be a time of exercise--with vigorous activity so that children can spend some of the pent up energies they've stored all day. Then, there are those that believe this is the ideal time for study and getting homework done--as the child's brain is already in the learning mode. Yet, others feel that after-school is a time for work or chores. Adults are full of theories on how this time should be spent. If they would just listen to the children, the children themselves will share how it can best be used.

I, myself, ran an after-school program for two years at our Adventist elementary school. I found it to be a time when kids needed ALL of the above. It varied for each child, and sometimes varied from day-to-day. The one thing that each of the children wanted more than anything else, however, was to go home and spend time with their parents. Sadly, many parents took advantage of the inexpensive "baby-sitting" and used the time to unwind and relax for themselves--away from their children.

Parents are missing the mark when they do not make their children a top priority in their lives.

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#256144 - 07/14/09 01:56 PM Re: How To Kill Adventist Education [Re: Aubrey]
Shane Offline
Administrator of Foro Adventista


Registered: 02/02/02
Posts: 22156
Loc: Rio Grande Valley, Texas
We do know that the two outreach programs that most effectually result in church growth are after-school and substance-abuse programs. We also know the Adventist church is lagging behind other denominations in these programs.

Many homes have both parents working during the time the after-school programs are taking place. So it is a great opportunity for the church to meet a need in the community. This is especially true for single-parent homes.
_________________________
Ask me about the *hidden* US Politics forum here. An exchange of ideas in the political arena.
Current Hot Topic: Ground Zero Mosque


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#260447 - 08/01/09 09:45 PM Re: How To Kill Adventist Education [Re: Shane]
guibox Offline


Registered: 11/04/08
Posts: 280
Loc: British Columbia, Canada
As a current educator in an SDA K-12 school, I think there are many reasons for our school's decline, and would venture to say that this applies to many, if not most, other SDA schools too.

1) Changing demographic - though many in our churches in our area like to point to specific people or policies for our gradual decline, the bottom line is that other public schools in our area are suffering due to lack of young families coming in and many moving out. Our school has suffered for this.

2) Cost compared to public school - As was mentioned, many just can't afford it even though we try hard to accommodate everyone and their situation

3) In-church policing and infighting. We have 7 consitutent churches in our area and people in each one seem to think the other churches are trying to 'sheep steal' our youth. The in-fighting between the liberal and conservative churches bleeds into the school. We have a major parcel of land in the back of our school that has been sitting doing nothing for 20 years because nobody wants to give it up or come to a decision. We could have sold it for $2 million dollars but it passed us by because of the stranglehold some people have over our policies.

4) Disfunctional school board - We have 21 (yes, you heard that right- 21!!!) school board members representing the and churches in the area. It is unbelievable how things get done, nevermind the personal agendas some bring to the table. This needs to be severely trimmed down.

5) Can't compete - Face it folks. Small SDA schools cannot provide some of the electives and cool classes that many of our kids want or need. The public schools can offer these things and we cannot. We have lost a few kids due to this and many more that don't come because we can't offer the perks that public schools can. We don't have special ed or ESL training or can afford the one on one time of tutoring or discipline management either.

6) Meddling conservative consituents. Since the 12 years I've been at our school, we've had to deal with certain church members/parents who feel that the school is going down hill because we don't follow 'the little red books' (which is not true). These people have (and still are) trying to dictate to the teachers what and how they should and shouldn't be teaching, petitioning to get rid of teachers they don't like due to some ridiculous notion, trying to bully the school board to follow their own agenda including creating our school schedule and trying to buy policies in our school (a major contributor to our chaplaincy program said he is withdrawing all our funding for it this upcoming year unless we make all the girls wear dresses and eliminate all our jewelry including teachers wearing wedding rings!).

Gail mentioned Fountainview. Fountainview has deep pockets and has established itself as the type of school it is. You can't take a school in such an urban environment with so much competition and expect to make it like that and draw people to it. It doesn't work that way. I don't agree with much of what Fountainview is about but all the more power to them. I just hate it when the conservatives feel that we will be a flourishing school that God can be proud of and bless if we become more like Fountainview. Rubbish
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#260484 - 08/01/09 11:57 PM Re: How To Kill Adventist Education [Re: guibox]
Richard Holbrook Online   content
Mr. Murphy's daddy


Registered: 07/07/09
Posts: 15598
Loc: North Carolina
Yes those dastardly old conservatives...

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#260562 - 08/02/09 11:36 AM Re: How To Kill Adventist Education [Re: Richard Holbrook]
pkrause Online   content


Registered: 03/24/00
Posts: 14208
Loc: Lancaster,MA,USA
Isn't that a hoot, you'd think that it would be the liberals that were the problem and not those conservative's that are held up as the golden party. :):):)

pk
_________________________
pk


"Ask not what your Country can do for you, ask what you can do for your Country" - President John F. Kennedy

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#304467 - 12/04/09 09:19 PM Re: How To Kill Adventist Education [Re: dgrimm60]
GreatLakesGramma Online   content


Registered: 02/21/01
Posts: 3222
Loc: Michigan, USA
I was also a follower of the Moores when I homeschooled. When our pastor, who did not believe in homeschooling, threatened to report us to Social Services for being bad parents, I called Dr. Moore. He talked to our pastor, who then backed off and left us alone.

As I read the chapter of the book at the beginning of this thread, My personal choice of why Adventist schools are too expensive is number 4. After I became burned out, our children attended the local church school for a short time. The teacher was great, but the influences of the other kids were not. One of our sons became the victim of what Dr. Moore refers to as "the wolf pack," which included ALL the other kids at the school, including his own siblings, and the stress caused him to behave as if he had an extreme case of ADHD, not just at school, but all the time. Both of our sons very quickly became quite vulgar, because of the influence of the other boys there. Our kids were rejects because they didn't watch TV, and because we were vegetarian. All of my careful efforts to nurture their spirituality were being undone in short order. And we should be willing to pay big bucks for this? Think again!

The nearby day academy where most of our church's high schoolers attended, had adopted a very exclusive attitude. The focus was more on high academics, and they didn't want anyone there who would bring down their stats. My best friend's daughter went there, and it was there, at school, that she became a drug addict, wholly under the influence of, and supplied by, fellow students. Out of her entire graduating class, there were only 2 students who remained in the church after graduation. And we should pay even bigger bucks for that? No thank you.
_________________________
Catherine

God is the strength of my heart and my portion forever. Psalm 73:26.

The unstudied, unconscious influence of a holy life is the most convincing sermon that can be given in favor of Christianity. Argument, even when unanswerable, may provoke only opposition; but a godly example has a power that it is impossible wholly to resist. The Faith I Live By, p. 153.

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#304469 - 12/04/09 09:24 PM Re: How To Kill Adventist Education [Re: GreatLakesGramma]
Richard Holbrook Online   content
Mr. Murphy's daddy


Registered: 07/07/09
Posts: 15598
Loc: North Carolina
Amen Sister.

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#304574 - 12/05/09 09:12 AM Re: How To Kill Adventist Education [Re: Richard Holbrook]
dgrimm60 Offline


Registered: 08/19/01
Posts: 22323
Loc: dickson tenn
HEY ALL

THERE is that fine line of only wanting to have
S.D.A. students in our S.D.A. schools or to
let non Adventist students in our schools

dgrimm60

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#304588 - 12/05/09 10:42 AM Re: How To Kill Adventist Education [Re: dgrimm60]
GreatLakesGramma Online   content


Registered: 02/21/01
Posts: 3222
Loc: Michigan, USA
In light of what you said, Dgrimm, I would like to add that all of the students in my friend's daughter's class were from SDA families.
_________________________
Catherine

God is the strength of my heart and my portion forever. Psalm 73:26.

The unstudied, unconscious influence of a holy life is the most convincing sermon that can be given in favor of Christianity. Argument, even when unanswerable, may provoke only opposition; but a godly example has a power that it is impossible wholly to resist. The Faith I Live By, p. 153.

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#304589 - 12/05/09 10:43 AM Re: How To Kill Adventist Education [Re: GreatLakesGramma]
GreatLakesGramma Online   content


Registered: 02/21/01
Posts: 3222
Loc: Michigan, USA
And my friend's daughter is dyslexic, but was not diagnosed until college. My friend was told by school administration that her daughter was "not academy material."
_________________________
Catherine

God is the strength of my heart and my portion forever. Psalm 73:26.

The unstudied, unconscious influence of a holy life is the most convincing sermon that can be given in favor of Christianity. Argument, even when unanswerable, may provoke only opposition; but a godly example has a power that it is impossible wholly to resist. The Faith I Live By, p. 153.

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